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continuing part #4 (I think); used by permission, THE SOURCE AND NT MEANING OF ARSENOKOITAI, WITH IMPLICATIONS FOR CHRISTIAN ETHICS AND MINISTRY James B. DeYoung W. Petersen More recently Wright's understanding has itself been questioned from a different direction. In a b...
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RAPTURE - OCTOBER 28, 1992 WHAT TO DO IN CASE YOU MISS THE RAPTURE I. STAY CALM AND DO NOT PANIC Your natural reaction once you realize what has just occurred is to panic. But to do so is absolutely useless now. If you had wanted to get right with God before the rapture, you could have, but you chose to wait. ...
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I'm looking for the following article: ``The War Within: an Anatomy of Lust'' Leadership 3 (1985), pp 30-48 I've looked in the libraries of 3 UK Bible Colleges, but none of them subscribe to the Magazine (its a US publication, btw). If anyone has access to this article and would be willing to post me a photocopy (I...
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But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil.
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930425 Rome was under attack by barbarians, they sent for advice to some Oracle, and she said Worship Cybele and you'll be saved. They did, they were. Cybele was the quintessential wiccan goddess, there was Her and her son & lover, Attis. Yucky idea if you ask me. OK the book says she was Phrygian, from the neolith...
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But wouldn't that go for any sin. My father told me when he was growing up Catholics were not allowed to associate with anyone who was divorced. There are a few verses prohibitting divorce. Somehow, divorce became acceptable (even in Catholicism anullments). Certainly it is no longer a sin to associate with a divorc...
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Michael> The kind of interpretation I see as "incredibly perverse" is Michael> that applied to the story of Sodom as if it were a blanket Michael> equation of homosexual behavior and rape. Since Christians Michael> citing the Bible in such a context should be presumed to have Michael> at least READ the story, it amou...
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I heard about the arms sale to Saudi Arabia. Now, how is it such a grave mistake to sell Saudi Arabia weapons? Or are you claiming that we shouldn't sell any weapons to other countries? Straightforward answer please. Who benefits from arms sales? Hint, it isn't normally the gov't. It is the contractor that buil...
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Someone stated that the Davidian cult should not be associated with Christianity. Well, I read all those four postings, and I'm now even more convinced that Davididians are truly Christian in nature. But sometimes it makes sense to re-label the cult, especially if the ugliness is too much to handle. Cheers, Kent
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Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God. Colossians 3:16 A reminder: These verses are from the New International Version. As with any translation, faithfulness to the origin...
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I recall a discussion I had heard years ago. It went something like this: The problem with omnipotence (at least as I perceive it) as personified by the christian God ideal is that it is potentially contradictory. If a manifestation such as God is truly infinite in power can God place limits upon itself? . . Some ...
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I think C.S. Lewis has argued that medieval people did not all think the world is flat. However, this argument goes both ways. Pretend someone telling Plato that it is highly probable that people do not really have souls; their minds and their consciousness are just something their brains make up, and their brains (...
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As I don't know this book, I will use your heresay. It depends on how he defines God. The way I understand the meaning of that term preclues it being used in a useful way in science. Ideas drawn from an understanding that God is supernatural precludes us from forming scientific assertions that can be falsified, th...
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> Can't someone describe someone's trinity in simple declarative > sentences that have common meaning? I offer him four attempts. First is an essay by me (largely indebted to Attempts Two and Three), obtainable by sending the message GET TRINITY ANALOGY to LISTSERV@ASUACAD.BITNET or to LISTSERV@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU ...
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You forgot one thing "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God". Mark
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It wasn't Jesus who changed the rules of the game (see quote above), it was Paul. Cheers, Kent
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Aaron> Colossians 2:11-12 "In him you were also circumcised, in the Aaron> putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done Aaron> by Christ, having been buried with him in baptism and raised Aaron> with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him Aaron> from the dead." Aaron> In baptism,...
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...in other words faith in a .357 is far stronger than faith in a God providing a miracle for his followers. Interesting. Now, if David Korresh was God, why couldn't he use lightning instead of semi-automatic rifles? It seems even he didn't trust in himself. Cheers, Kent
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I thought your nickname was "UnEnlightened" -- Maddi Hausmann madhaus@netcom.com Centigram Communications Corp San Jose California 408/428-3553
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First, you seem to assume all atheists think alike. An atheist does not believe in the existence of a god. Our opinions on issues such as capital punishment and abortion, however, vary greatly. If you were attacking the views of a particular atheist (Benedikt, I presume), then please present your argument as s...
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Surely you are not equating David Koresh with Christianity? The two are not comparable.
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ [underlining mine/Quean Lutibelle] Yes, those who apply it hatefully would be better served if they if they could alter the Bible to reflect their views: Scene 1:...
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If you would like to understand better the sort of behavior that we saw in connection with the Waco tragedy, I'd strongly recommend reading _When Prophecy Fails_, by Leon Festinger, Henry Riecken, and Stanley Schachter (available as a Harper Torchbook). It goes a long way towards explaining how a belief system can be ...
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Ok, what's more important to gay Christians? Sex, or Christianity? Christianity I would hope. Would they be willing to forgo sex completely, in order to avoid being a stumbling block to others, to avoid the chance that their interpretation might be wrong, etc? If not, why not? Heterosexuals abstain all the time. (I...
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I once heard an arguement from a xtian friend similar to this. "Christianity is a Higher Logic. Athiest like u will not be able to understand it. Your atheist logic is very low. Only thru faith can we understand the Higher Logic in God". So I asked him, "So what is this Higher Logic?" His answer, "I don't know...
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I read it when it first came out, and the controversy broke. Put my name on the waiting list at the library (that way if the book was really offensive, none of my money would find its way to the author or publisher), and read it, "cover to cover" (to use a phrase that seems popular here right now). And I *liked* it. ...
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Note: the following article is submitted on behalf of someone (Frank daniels) who has difficulty posting to s.r.c, email replies to daniels@math.ufl.edu I am unable to post to the bitnet groups. Here is a capsule history of the Shepherding/Discipleship Movement in the Churches of Christ (i.e. Crossroads/Boston): ...
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Well, where is he? Another false Messiah shot down in flames. Matthew 24:4 "Watch out that no one deceives you. For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ', and will deceive many." Matthew 24:23 "At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There he is!' do not b...
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Exactly. Although this may be a dissapointing answer, there has to be an interplay of the two. Personal Ethos and Societal Morality. A person's self-generated/learned set of beliefs are usually expressed on a purely mental/verbal level, and don't usually find expression in society except in an impure (not in the se...
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From the June newsletter of the Latin Liturgy Association: There is a new e-mail discussion group: LATIN-L, a forum for people interested in classical Latin, medieval Latin, Neo-Latin; the languages of choice are Latin (of course) and whatever vulgar languages you feel comfortable using. Please be prepared to transla...
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It is still incestuous.... :)
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From whose point of view would you like to know what relativism concludes? One of the people involved in the argument, or some third person observing the arguers?
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I'm not sure that you can distinguish between myth and legend so neatly, or at all. A myth is more than a single story. The thought structure and world-paradigm in which that story is interpreted is as important a part of the myth as the story itself. Thus, I can think of no story which is meant to be conveyed un...
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The entire business of a Bank is the management of risk. That's what a Bank is for. That's what people who work for Banks do. OK, but in that case why are you posting about it? What I hear you saying is "I don't understand this stuff, but if Islam says it's so, it's so".
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In the course of discussing the Sabbath with some folks, I came across something that was completely new to me, and I thought I'd offer it for comment. To keep this as brief as possible, let me state my observation as a declarative statement, and then whoever wants to can comment on it. Basically, what I think I...
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Okay, I see smilies, so this isn't supposed to be a serious post. On the other hand, I would suppose it does has some motivation behind it. Apparently the idea is to poke fun at religion, but there is presumably some sort of reasoning behind it. As an argument, this statement is worthless. Presuming the Qur'an ...
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nelson_p@apollo.hp.com (Peter Nelson) writes... The rest of the story seems to be that the agreement for the broadcast was for prime-time, and that Koresh never even heard it played. Wasn't even tuned in to the radio when it aired -- so no reason to come out. If later they had given him a copy of the grossly twisted...
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Persons interested in the tongues question are are invited to peruse an essay of mine, obtainable by sending the message GET TONGUES NOTRANS to LISTSERV@ASUACAD.BITNET or to LISTSERV@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU
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... Regarding the first paragraph, I would say that I didn't write it. I don't believe that unbaptized babies are put in Hell. I don't even believe in Hell. At least, I don't believe in a fiery place where there will be "gnashing of teeth".
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You said everyone in the world. That means *everyone* in the world, including children that are not old enough to speak, let alone tell lies. If Jesus says "everyone", you cannot support that by referring to a group of people somewhat smaller than "everyone". -- "On the first day after Christmas my truelove served t...
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Riddle me this. If a god(s) exist why on earth should we grovel? Why on earth should we give a damm at all? What evidence do you have that if such a creature(s) exist it deserves anything beyond mild admiration or sheer hatred for what it/they have done in the past (whichever god(s) you care to pick). That is assu...
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I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.
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> A Christian friend of mine once reasoned that if we were never > created, we could not exists. Therefore we were created, and > therefore there exists a Creator. I hesitate to comment on the validity of this, because I do not know what your friend meant by it. If he meant that whatever exists must have been crea...
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Throw away the FAQ. We can all just ask Mr O'Dwyer, since he can define the thing that the rest of us only talk about.
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I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you. Luke 10:19
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[...details of US built chemical plant at Al Alteer near Baghdad...] : However, the plant's intended use was to aid the Iraqi infrastructure. : It is not an example of selling a weapon. May sound nitpicking, : but are we going to refuse to sell valuable parts that build the : infrastructure because of dual use techno...
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#|> # #|> #False dichotomy. You claimed the killing were *not* religiously #|> #motivated, and I'm saying that's wrong. I'm not saying that #|> #each and every killing is religiously motivate, as I spelled out #|> #in detail. #|> #|> Which killings do you say are religously motivated? # #For example, I would claim ...
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existance. *************************************************************************** I just thought it necessary to help defend the point that Jesus existed. Guys: Jesus existed. If he didnt, then you have to say that Socrates didnt exist cuz he, like Jesus, has nothing from his hands that have survived. O...
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[continuing with Dr. DeYoung's article-] SURVEY OF NEW INTERPRETATIONS OF ARSENOKOITAI D.S. Bailey D.S. Bailey was perhaps the trailblazer of new assessments of the meaning of arsenokoitai. He takes the term in I Cor 6:9 as denoting males who actively engage in homosexual acts, in contrast to m...
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I've done all those things, and I've regretted it, and I learned a lesson or two. So far an aspirin, a good talk with your wife, or a one week vacation has cured me -- no need for group therapy or strange religions! Cheers, Kent
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#[reply to frank@D012S658.uucp (Frank O'Dwyer)] # #>>The problem for the objectivist is to determine the status of moral #>>truths and the method by which they can be established. If we accept #>>that such judgements are not reports of what is but only relate to #>>what ought to be (see naturalistic fallacy) then the...
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Jim and Andy both have it incorrect I believe: The *facts* are what is there, the processes that exist in the present or the physical evidence of the processes having occured in the past. These *facts* exist with or without a theory. The *theory* tries and explains the *facts* and how they relate to the rest of the p...
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[my stuff about dealing with defferences deleted] i am sorry; i did not mean to. i think i understand how your experiences were much worse than the small bit of ridicule i have had to put up with. i guess i didn't really understand before; now i do. wow, pretty conservative church. (please excuse me if this seem...
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On one of the morning shows (I think is was the Today Show), David Koresh's lawyer was interviewed. During that interview he flipped through some letters that David Koresh wrote. On one of letters was written in Hebrew (near the bottom of the page): koresh adonai
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No, which is why I want an investigation. Who ever said he was? What is obvious is that he was defending himself, and his followers, from the government. Whether you think he was right or wrong in this is another question. If he was right, then he had the moral right to kill those kgBATF agents. --Ray Cote
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Ultimately it rests with personal opinion...in my opinion. :-) The question doesn't make sense to me. Maybe it would be better to ask, "What makes a democracy better than [for example] a totalitarian regim?"
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Here is someones "biblical" claim for the characteristics of Satan: And separately: We have here three distinct claims concerning the results of the devil's decision making, a specific desire, and a physical description. Now, in support (aside from the minor detail that an author seldom writes an unbiased account ...
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The universe, mirrored in a puddle. Isn't it amazing how there *always* seems to be *another* bottle of bheer there? Aleph *one* bottles of beer on the wall, Aleph *one* null bottles of beer! you, too, are a puddle. As above, so below.
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On 21-Apr-93 in Re: ABORTION and private he.. Not so in PA. Recently the gender inequity in auto insurance was removed. Just a point.
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[Someone quoted the following. I've removed the name because it's not clear which name goes with which level of quote. --clh] On the basis of these examples I would say that Joe Moore was only wrong in claiming Augustine as a prime mover of the sin=sex view. These quotes clearly equate sexuality with defilement a...
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From a parallel thread. Much about definitions of bombs, etc. deleted. [...] Mathew, I agree. This, it seems, is the crux of your whole position, isn't it? That the US shouldn't have supported Hussein and sold him arms to fight Iran? I agree. And I agree in ruthlessly hunting down those who did or do. But we *...
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I also heard the Romans had a large Solar festival on this day because this day, about 3 days after the Winter Solstice, was when you could notice a change in the shadows and be sure that the Sun was indeed returning. In fact, I remember the latin phrase Natalis Solis Invicti (sp!) associated here. I can't say for ce...
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Once the Rushdie situation exploded into the media, the Muslim voice on the matter of the book was effectively restricted to short video bytes showing the dramatic highlights of Muslim demonstrations. For every twenty or so newspaper, magazine articles, interviews etc. supporting Rushdie, there would appear one Muslim...
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You may not think that it is fair, but how many sins do you know of that affect only the sinner? Is it fair for us even to be able to get into Heaven? Do we have a _right_ to Heaven, even if we were to lead sinless lives? Anyway, your argument seems to be saying, "If _I_ were God, I certainly wouldn't do things ...
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Ok, let me see if I can get all this out concisely. I am on an information gathering venture regarding the various expressions of Christianity/churches there are. My husband and I come from very different, but completely Christian backgrounds. I was a Lutheran when I met him and he was a born and raised Chu...
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: : > Surely you are not equating David Koresh with Christianity? The two are : > not comparable. : : This is always an option: when the sect is causing harm, re-label : the cult to something else. : : Cheers, : Kent Good point. I would not doubt that DK could have spouted verse and debated with best. According to...
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"CHRISTIANITY IN CRISIS" by: Hank Hanegraaff "Controversy for the sake of controversy is a sin. Controversy for the sake of truth is a divine command." -Dr. Walter Martin Dr. Walter Martin personally selected Hank Haneg...
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}It is so simple.... I'm surprised that this subject gets }beat to death about once a month. A quick glance in a dictionary }would clear up 99% of the confusion and bandwidth in this }newsgroup. Reading Stephen Jay Gould's essay "Evolution as Fact and Theory" wouldn't hurt, either. It appears in _Hen's Teeth and Hors...
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: The willingness of true believers : to die for their belief, be it in Jesus or Jim Jones, is : well-documented, so martyrdom in and of itself says little. It does say something about the depth of their belief. Religion has both deluded believers and con men. The difference is often how far they will follow their b...
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God ItSelf appeared to me and spoke to me, saying "Rawlins has been listening to a deamon, and has been taken in by its satanic words!"
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Question for those of you who seem to be fundamentalists (Stephen Tice, the Cotera, Joe Gaut, et al)(apologies if I've mislabelled any of you, I've only started reading t.r.m since the BD disaster. But I know the Cotera is a fundy) and are defending Koresh and his beliefs as an example of True Christianity under perse...
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Though this will be addressed in the series of articles I'm posting now under "ARESNOKOITIA", I can't wait. This just really blew my socks off. Read I Tim 1: 3-11. Verses 3-8 speaks against those who have perverted the teachings of the Mosaic Law. In vv.9-10, we have, *IN ORDER*, the 5th thru the 9th commandments...
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marshall@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Kevin Marshall) <1r2eba$hsq@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> Faith and dogma are dangerous because they cause people to act on faith alone, which by its nature is without justification. That is what I mean by the word ``faith'': belief without justification, or belief with arbitrary justification, or wi...
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What is the basis of the idea of hell being a place of eternal suffering? If it is Biblical, please reference. Here's my train of thought: If God is using the Earth to manufacture heavenly beings, then it is logical that there would be a certain yield, and a certain amount of waste. The yield goes to Heaven, and the...
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: Ok, what's more important to gay Christians? Sex, or Christianity? : Christianity I would hope. Would they be willing to forgo sex : completely, in order to avoid being a stumbling block to others, : to avoid the chance that their interpretation might be wrong, : etc? If not, why not? Heterosexuals abstain all th...
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... I had an ehum, interesting experience with the Rosicrucians, or at least Rosicrucians of some sort last Sunday. They had advertised that they were holding a lecture titled The Graal of the King -- the room of the heart (which rhymes in Swedish). Out of curiosity, I went to the lecture. There were four people ther...
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Brian Ceccarelli wrote (that's me): Kent Sandvik responds: I think I see where you are coming from Kent. Jesus doesn't view guilt like our modern venacular colors it. "Feelings" have nothing to do with guilt. Feelings arise from the state of being guilty. Feeling and guilt are mutally exclusive. Feelings a...
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It isn't. And I wasn't aware that this O'Hair chick was a reader of a.a., so that doesn't support your assertion that the argument is "the whole basis of a great many HERE rejecting...".
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Does anyone belong to or know any facts about the Christian Reformed Church?
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FREE-ENERGY TECHNOLOGY by Robert E. McElwaine, Physicist Ninety to a hundred years ago, everybody "knew" that a heavier-than-air machine could not possibly fly. It would violate the "laws" of physics. All of the "experts" and "authoriti...
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He appears to have believed that. He had a view which was condemned by conciliar action, which is often taken to be condemnation of the idea of reincarnation. What was actually condemned was the doctrine of the pre-existence of the soul before birth. Similar, but not exactly the same thing. Larry Overacker (ll@sh...
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More to the point, how long are atheists going to be insulted by the disgraceful addition of religious blah-blah to our money and out pledge? -- "What's big, noisy and has an IQ of 8?"
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I wasn't sure if this was the right newsgroup to post this to, but I guess the misc is there for a reason. Here goes... I am getting married in June to a devout (Wisconsin Synod) Lutheran. I would classify myself as a strong agnostic/weak athiest. This has been a a subject of many discussions between us and is re...
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Fine, but one of the points of this entire discussion is that "we" (conservative, reformed christians - this could start an argument... But isn't this idea that homosexuality is ok fairly "new" [this century] ? Is there any support for this being a viable viewpoint before this century? I don't know.) don't believe tha...
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[The only reason for the death penalty is revenge?? If you are going to try to refute a position, try to refute the whole position or acknosledge that you are only speaking to small piece of the problem. Broad sweeping "the only reason, " etc on as tough nut to crack as the death penalty reallly doesn't help much. Ev...
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(Deletion) (rest deleted) That's a fallacy, and it is not the first time it is pointed out. For one, you have never given a set of morals people agree upon. Unlike a football. Further, you conveniently ignore here that there are many who would not agree on tghe morality of something. The analogy does not hold. On...
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I am not exactly known as a Flower Child Pacifist, but lets call cowpoop cowpoop. "The peaceful attempt to serve the warrant" consisted of the following actions, in order: 1) BATF agents forcing their entry of the "compound" through second story windows. 2) BATF agents loosing some grenades (allegedly "stun" or "f...
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Once again, this posting has been delayed for about a week by falling between some software cracks... [Here follows an introduction to the controversial incident, and an apologetic explanation purporting to show why it couldn't actually have happened. The historicity of the episode doesn't matter to what follows]...
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Well, as I remember Jacoby's "Mythmaker" talks about this to cite one source -- but I'm not sure if all Christians have read this book. In addition my social experiences is from being raised and educated as a Lutheran, having a lot of Christian friends, and I even have played in two Christian rock bands! So, over to ...
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Yes, that's exactly what I felt. My heart just felt that what I was being taught was *wrong* -- a basically good message, but framed in errors. I could not with a clear conscience accept that women were somehow not equal to men, that homosexuals are "guilty" of their lifestyle, that pride in one's work is a bad thin...
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[I write:] #>>> Imagine that 1000000 Alterian dollars turn up in your bank account every #>>> month. Suppose further that this money is being paid to you by (a) your #>>> big-hearted Alterian benefactor, or (b) a bug in an Alterian ATM. Let's #>>> suppose that this is a true dichotomy, so P(a)+P(b)=1. Trouble is, Alt...
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Hmm, it seems that this is the core of Christianity then, you have to feel guilty, and then there's this single personality that will save you from this universal guilt feeling. Brian, I will tell you a secret, I don't feel guilty at all, I do mistakes, and I regret them, however I've never had this huge guilt feeli...
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ra> Robert, you keep making references to "orthodox" belief, and saying ra> things like "it is held that..." (cf. "Kermit" thread). On what ra> exact body of theology are you drawing for what you call "orthodox?" "Orthodox" is a compound word. It comes from 'orthos' (straight, true, right) and from 'do...
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Who is Ram Das? According to his brochures, he is a.k.a. Richard Alpert, PhD, and is somehow associated with the: Seva Foundation 8 N. San Pedro Road San Rafael, CA 94903 and the: Hanuman Foundation 524 San Anselmo Ave #203 San Anselmo, CA 94960 He speaks publically on such topics as "Consciousness &...
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What do you accept as a fact -- the roundness of the earth (after all, the ancient Greeks thought it was a sphere, and then Newton said it was a spheroid, and now people say it's a geoid [?])? yourself (isn't your personal identity just a theoretical construct to make sense of memories, feelings, perceptions...
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Not true. Only an observer at rest at infinite distance from the black hole will see the particle take infinite time to reach the horizon. In the particle's own reference frame, it takes a very finite time to reach the horizon and the singularity. The math does indeed predict this. Take a look at Mitchner, Thorne, and...
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The OED gives the etymology of "sibyl" as coming from the ancient Greek sigma iota beta upsilon lambda lambda alpha ( S i b ih l l a ) which is claimed to come from the Doric sigma iota omicron beta upsilon lambda lambda alpha ( s i o b ih l l a ) which (if I read it properly) in turn came from the Attican...
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